Here in recent days the topics of John Calvin and Martin Luther have come up and have been discussed. Martin Luther I always enjoyed to discussing because he is essentially the father of the protestant stream of of faith. I always shyed away from John Calvin and his theories because the first thing you think about when his name comes up is the idea of predestination; and how some are chosen to spend eternity in heaven and then others are destined to go the hell.
Upon further study I find myself to be a 3 point Calvinist of which is there is a possibility of being a 5 point Calvinist. I believe that in total depravity that man cannot save himself. I believe in unconditional election in that going to be with God is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith but on God's mercy alone. Finally I believe in perserverance of the saints simply put once saved you can't lose your salvation regardless of what may happen.
It's funny how assumptions about a controversial theory can shape or thinking/attitude. This post has along links using the gi-normous resource of Wikipedia. There's alot here to be explored.
I can really feel the pressure, we starting to near the end of the first third of semester and we all know what that means.....Tests,exams.....ugh!! My prayer request would be that God grant me the ability to be a better manager of my time.
Grace, Peace, and Coffee
*My hope this generates more traffic my way and whole lot more discussion via my comments*
nudge nudge...wink wink
9 comments:
Oh my Gosh!!!
I haven't even gotten to the post yet and the title made me roll on the floor!
You've got to be kidding!
Even if you are a 5-point Calvinist, you don't have the ability to go looking up everyone's skirts to see if they're chosen or not. So evangelism basically remains the same.
Today's comment entry word:
Oqybfs / (Oh-kee-buf) n./ the parts of a vehicle replaced by various recycled metals and pieces of trash upon breaking down, esp. in southern Louisiana. The 's' makes the word plural, but is still silent, as is normal with French.
See also;
- Jerry-rig
- Ghetto-rig
shesh. you guys seriously don't understand the reformed doctrine of predestination. get you some john piper or wayne grudem, sit down w/ them, and read, read, read.
every christian is a calvinist. really, they are.
case in point: which statement do you resonate with better: "it's all about god!" or "it's all about me!" statement 1 = calvinist/reformed (sovereignty of god is primary concern); statement 2 is arminian (god is limited in power due to human free will).
second case in point: how do you pray for your lost friends? "god, please open their hearts/eyes... amen." (or something like that) or "bill, please open your heart to god... amen." god is sovereign in the first prayer; bill (or jane, or susan, or chris, or whoever) has more sway over eternity in the second one.
read some c.j. mahaney or r.c. sproul or al mohler or spurgeon or john edwards as well. for what it's worth, mark driscoll considers himself a five-and-a-half point calvinist. me? the jury is still out. i used to think i was a 2.5 point calvinist. then, i switched to 4.3 point. then, 2.1 point. then 3.1457 point, then...
it's late. i babysat for the past 5 hours. and i'm really, really tired and cranky. hehehe. g'night!
YAY!!! in depth discussion I've finally arrived in the blogging world
adam~give me some book titles i.e. for Spurgeon, Piper(Mohler considers himself a 5-pointer)
Well my stance is this the other two points are
#1 Limited Atonement: which is makes God into the jock in elementary school picking all the good kids for kickball. I tend to be more Arminian here and believe that its up to the individual to accept/reject the free gift of Christ.
The same goes for the following point as well.....
#2 Irresistable grace: its sounds harsh but I believe that a person can go throughout life and never receive Christ as Lord and Saviour as this point says otherwise
3 point Calvinist or a Compatiblist as Dr. Daniel Akin considers himself
Akin - Being the president of Southeastern
Adam~
I can't say that I think that God is in any way limited, but I do think that there is an inexplicable dichotomy (although that doesn't quite say it) between the constant tugging and pulling of God on this world and its complex cacophony of human hearts, and the nature of both love and free will.
Haven't gotten to Piper yet. I'll put it back on the list.
whipple~ yes, you do believe god is limited. if you believe that salvation comes through a free will decision to receive christ as savior, then you acknowledge god has limited his power to enable you (or me or whoever) to have more power than him in deciding whether or not to receive salvation. (arminianism) besides, if salvation is contingent upon my free will, i can loose my salvation by freely choosing to "opt out" of it later on in life. (this goes against the perseverence of the saints "p" in "tulip"... or the baptist version of "once saved, always saved"... see how this whole thing unravels if you don't in some way agree with all five points?) likewise, wouldn't my voluntary choice be a form of "works" or "deeds?" afterall, if it is a choice that i am making PRIOR to conversion, then it is of my flesh because i make the decision BEFORE salvation... before i am regenerate. if salvation is by faith and by a grace i can't resist alone (the "i" in "tulip"), then i can honestly claim absolutely no part in my own salvation. soley a gift from god, and, as paul says, nothing i can boast in and of myself.
if you believe that god predestines the elect, you believe god has limited himself to exaltation and protection of his glory. (calvinism) so, both arminians and calvinists believe in a somewhat limited god. it just depends on how he limited himself.
jared, i understand your "jock in elementary" school analogy. however, lest we forget scripture constantly reminds us that god's ways are not our ways. to look at god and say: "well, he certainly couldn't do it that way because it's unfair!" is for us to argue based upon human experience and not divine revelation as found in scripture. there is greater mystery in god within the calvinist perspective then there is in the arminian perspective. (see the links below)
this is all i'm gonna comment on this stuff because, well, it'll always be an argument among free thinking christians and i'm just way to busy to keep hammering at it. for now, i suggest the following articles by piper and others found free online at the resurgence (acts 29 church planting network):
http://theresurgence.com/john_piper_2000_are_there_two_wills_in_god
http://theresurgence.com/john_frame_2006_determinism_chance_and_freedom
as far as books, the first article i linked above is a chapter from a book that piper contributed to. i also suggest wayne grudem's systematic theology.
press on, bruthas!
Adam~I'm gonna add one last tibit in saying that yes I agree that God's ways are not our ways as scripture says, and to debate this further toes the line of trying to know the mind of God....therefore the stalemate
Ugh. I hate discussion that feels like debate - especially when it's not face to face. To be honest, my friend, that's all you'll get out of me for debate on your website.
Make no mistake, I read it, comments or no.
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